Shane and Harry are joined by cabinetmaker and author Nancy Hiller. Shane discusses one of Nancy’s publications, ‘Historic Preservation in Indiana’ and its relevance to an idea of things that aren’t the supposedly important things. He claims that this is his entry into the design conversation, even though it’s not about design at all. They talk about the importance of how objects tell the story of humans, how the world is made, and all the ‘not capital-I important’ things and people worth studying and loving. Harry talks about anxiety when doing built-ins and the intrinsic value of making hedgehog houses. Nancy talks about making a modest living doing things that matter for and are appreciated by her clientele.